I should have known better than to take on someone who wrote a paper on the
subject! I appreciate your knowledge and research into this and obviously
you then know well the disagreements that exist among vets, conformation
experts and equine physiologists about what constitutes adequate "bone" for
optimum performance, weight bearing, force bearing and long term soundness.
Dr. Bennett whose views I respect does not agree with Dr. Loving.
I did not do the measurements on my Haflingers; the inspectors, including
Herr Schweisgut did. They measured a standard distance below the knee,
presumably at the point of the smallest diameter of the cannon bone. There
are inspectors on this list so perhaps they can tell us where the standard
point of measurement is.
And I do agree the cannon is more oval than round, true for all extremity
bones, no matter what species. It just really bugs me when judges ooh and
aah over "flat bone" when there is no such thing, and it truly is
meaningless to the function of the horse.
So, we can agree to disagree on the amount of bone that is ideal. I don't
raise heavy Haflingers and don't advocate for anything but medium/moderate
in all things: bone, height, color, temperament. Middle of the road, which
is boring to many, but is preservation of the best breed qualities without
the extremes. I am absolutely against separating the breed into "types"
like the Welsh or other breeds. It is unnecessary as I think we all agree
that a medium build Haflinger is capable of performance in all disciplines,
even excelling in some. So why breed for extremes?
Emily
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:09 PM, rivervalleyph <rivervalleyph@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
> Hi Emily,
> As per measuring the circumfrence of the cannon bone I will ask- where are
> you measuring? Some believe you should measure just below the knee, others
> at the smallest part of the bone, and this can be different for different
> horses as I am sure you know. I am talking about measuring the smallest part
> of the bone, the absolute least amount they have, however, if I was to
> measure them all just below the knee my measurements would increase I am
> quit sure.
> As for Eight Belles, well she was surely not 14.2 for starters, and she is
> a TB not a haflinger, and I don't know what her bone strength indicators
> where- but regardless, I would like to talk about haflingers, and I realize
> many see our breed as loosing bone. However, we do not, that I know of, have
> our haflingers on a tract somewhere when they are yearlings running two plus
> miles a day, so we are not comparing apples to apples here.
> I too have been to Austria, and spent much time looking at haflingers
> across Austria and Europe, so please don't treat me as though I am just a
> farm girl who doesn't know any better. I studied the breed very in debth
> while I was there and asked a lot of questions. I have also read
> classification papers of horses world wide and generations back. I am also
> lucky enough to be with someone that is from Austria and reads German, that
> was a real help! I will say this though, of all your quotes, I do appreciate
> them. However, I learned what I am about to write in school, as well as when
> I attended the three clinics in Austria, one of which dealt directly to this
> subject, and yes Hannes was there as well.
> One: and I quote from the veterinary manual for the performance horse by
> Nancy S. Loving, DVM:
> "Bone Strentgh Indicators: For optimal strength, the measurement of the
> cannon bone (just below the knee) should yield at least 7 inches
> circumference for every 1,000lbs of body weight. Using these figures as
> guidelines, the ideal circumference of an individual horse's cannon bone can
> be determined. The formula looks like this:
> 7 inches / 1000 lbs (or .007) x body weight of horse = ideal
> circumference."
> So, a horse weighing 750 lbs should have a cannon bone of 5.24", whereas a
> horse weighing 1000 lbs should be 7", a horse weighing 1500lbs should be
> 10.5"s. Well, the average haflinger weighs between 850-1000 lbs if in proper
> fitness, not too fat or too skinny. So, where are we so wrong here? Height
> does not always lead to heft. However, I do understand what you are saying,
> but I do not believe it to be the only determining factor in soundness for
> performance horse. We once again forgot to add in here that haflingers
> cannon bones are generally not as long as saddle horses, much less TB's,
> even by ratio. This is where the haflinger breed when compared to others
> looses it's height in many cases actually, because their cannon bones are
> shorter. Generally their forearms and girths are close to the average length
> of most saddle horses. Because the cannon bone is shorter in length, it is
> then known to be stronger. The longer the cannon bone, the weaker it becomes
> unless the circumference is porportioned. So, if we where then to compare
> the haflingers cannon bone to a TB's or even other saddle type horses, we
> would easily realize that the haflingers cannon bone, even at 7"s if he
> weighs 1000lbs and stands 14.2 is much stronger than the TB's. Know, there
> is more to it than just this as well... There is about bone strength: "As
> bone matures, minerals (calcium and phosphorus) are deposited into the bone
> at the expense of cellular fluid to occupy up to 65% of the space. By the
> time a horse is fully mature, the minerals make up 95% of the bone. The
> amount of minerals in a bone determines its bone mineral content or BMC.
> Internal remodeling proceeds without changing the observable shape of the
> skeleton. However, these invisible changes in the bones greatly affect
> intrinsic strength and skeletal maturity of the bone."
> OK, so what does this have to do with round verses flat bone you say. Well,
> as you pointed out there is debatable ideas on round bone verses flat bone
> and its definition, and what contributes to it. However, there are some
> facts. One- the cannon bone is absolutely not round. If you think so, find a
> "dead leg" and cut it in two. Or, ask a vet to see some x-rays of the cannon
> bone and ask for a cross-sectional view- you will soon learn that the bone
> is suppose to be oval in shape. However, there are horses amongst the living
> that do have round bone for a cannon bone, all the way down the length of
> the cannon bone. This is not ideal because it does not take stress levels
> the same as an oval bone. Round bone will break down faster. Still don't
> believe me- go with a vet or to an animal hospital and ask to see and be
> envolved with the dissection of equines that have passed on- this is not to
> sound insane or sick, but it is very educational if you never have dissected
> an equine. In school we did it a lot and still today if a horse around here
> dies from something we are not sure of, it gets dissected to find out and
> learn from. (Just not my old horse, Stormy)
> Anyway- if you attend some judges clinics, not just with our breed, but
> outside our breed and some lameness clinics, visit with all the vets you
> can, and so on, you will understand that there is indeed a difference in
> structure of the bone itself, not just how and where the tendons, ligaments,
> and muscles tie into it. When talking about joints however, and a person
> mentions a nice flat hock, or a flat knee, that has all to do with how and
> where the tendons, ligaments and muscles tie into each other to form the
> joint, as well as how the two bones line up and are similar. Looking at
> joints verses a cannon bone are not the same as the cannon bone can have a
> look due to structure and or how other parts come into it. I can tell you I
> did a research paper in college on this very subject Emily. I dissected
> several equine legs and took many x-rays, and researched a lot of
> information and picked peoples brains to finally understand this very
> subject. I wish I had my old computer as I would love to be able to send you
> copy of cross-sectional radiographs of the equine cannon bone and more. But-
> it crapped the bed many years ago and all I have is the paper I wrote- so-
> that'll have to due.
> I just don't think that a horse that is 15 hands has to have a cannon bone
> of at least 8"s to stay sound, as I believe it is more than just
> circumference, but also the horse weight, the length of the cannon bone, and
> what the horse is doing for performance.
> I appreciate your post, and I hope you appreciate mine. This is a subject
> that we could go on and on about I guess, but I think we have both had a
> thought at this here again and I know it is good to think outside the box at
> times, so I will thank you for that!
> Oh ya- I do care about the breed as well, and do not and never been one to
> make a horse something he is not to make a quick buck. Those that know me
> know that!
> Sincerely,
> Dawn
>
>
> --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Emily Gibson <briarcroft@...> wrote:
> >
> > Dawn,
> >
> > in my opinion (and based on Dr. Deb Bennett's analysis of ideal bone to
> > height ratios, anything under an 8 inch cannon circumference on a 15 hand
> +
> > horse is way too small. Here is one conformation analysis (Cherry Hill)
> that I
> > could find quickly on the web, also dealing with the "flat vs round"
> cannon
> > issue. The cannon bone is anatomically round--that is simply how bones
> are made, not
> > flat at all--it is the appearance of "flatness" caused by the placement
> of the tendons that is considered ideal. It really doesn't have any
> functional significance that I'm aware of whatsoever. It is aesthetics.
> >
> > "Quality is depicted by "flat" bone (indicated by the cannon bone), clean
> > joints, sharply defined (refined) features, smooth muscling, overall
> > blending of parts, and a fine, smooth hair coat. "Flat" bone is a
> misnomer
> > because the cannon bone is round. Flat actually refers to well-defined
> > tendons that stand out cleanly behind the cannon bone and give the
> > impression the bone is "flat".
> >
> > *Substance* refers to thickness, depth, and breadth of bone, muscle, and
> > other tissues. Muscle substance is described by type of muscle, thickness
> of
> > muscle, length of muscles, and position of attachment. Other substance
> > factors include weight of the horse, height of the horse, size of the
> hoofs,
> > depth of the heart girth and flank, and spring of rib.
> >
> > Best viewed from the rear, spring of rib refers to the curve of the ribs;
> a
> > flat-ribbed horse may have inadequate heart and lung space. Besides
> > providing room for the heart, lungs, and digestive tract, a well-sprung
> rib
> > cage provides a natural, comfortable place for a rider's legs. A
> slab-sided
> > horse with a shallow heart girth is difficult to sit properly; an
> extremely
> > wide-barreled horse can be stressful to the rider's legs.
> >
> > Substance of bone indicates adequacy of the ratio of the bone to the
> horse's
> > body weight. Bone measurement is taken on an adult horse around the
> > circumference of the cannon bone just below the knee. For riding horses,
> an
> > adequate ratio is approximately .7 inches of bone for every 100# of body
> > weight. Using that thumb rule, a 1200 # horse should have an 8.4 inch
> > circumference cannon bone for his weight to be adequately supported."
> >
> > Here are two reprints of posts I did on this list in the past about this
> > issue:
> >
> >
> > Eight Belles' break down at the end of the Kentucky Derby may not feel
> > connected to Haflingers, but there is a powerful lesson here for
> > Haflinger breeders. I am well aware the increasing frequency of break
> > downs like this in Thoroughbred front legs is attributable to the drive
> > by breeders to get the most muscle on top of the lightest bone in order
> > to attain the greatest speed.
> >
> > This is not how a horse was meant to be built although they are meant to
> > be able to run fast to escape predators. They have become anatomically
> > dysfunctional. The Thoroughbred, beautiful breed that it is, has been
> > bred to a point of becoming unable to sustain its own weight under the
> > powerful forces of speed and pounding forward momentum.
> >
> > This is a tragedy, as emotionally wrenching as Barbaro's injury and long
> > ago, Ruffian's fatal injury in her match race.
> >
> > I only hope the Thoroughbreds with denser and greater diameter of bone
> > will be bred, even if it is sacrificing speed. At least there wouldn't
> > be this kind of needless suffering of an innocent animal.
> >
> > As a close observer of Haflinger breeding practices in north Tyrol over
> > the years, I have documented, using the data provided by the Tyrolian
> > Breeders' Association in their publications, the practice of breeding
> > for a taller animal with a more refined (i.e. thinner) cannon bone
> > circumference. I also spoke directly with the director of the
> > Association, Herr Johannes Schweisgut, several years ago about the
> > trend, and gave him the data that showed the trend clearly from
> > early in the 20th century to early in the 21st century. He denied there
> > was a change from the "original" Haflinger, but the data preserved from
> > his father tells another story.
> >
> > I'm very pleased to see in the last 2-3 years of three year old stallion
> > approvals in north Tyrol, this trend seems to have been slowed. In the
> > current crop of approvals, there are only two (Altare and Whetu) who are
> > almost 15 hands with cannon bones under 8 inches circumference. There
> > are several stallions who are under 14-2 hands with the same cannon
> > circumference so their weight bearing capacity is strengthened by the
> > sturdier bone. This is a very encouraging trend! With the wisdom of
> > the inspectors and the breeders, we will preserve the powerful and
> > strong bone that makes our breed unique and avoid the deadly extremes in
> > other popular breeds.
> >
> >
> > Mr. Schweisgut could use a
> > physics lesson or a basic structural engineering course. I brought up
> > this very point in my discussion with him at the American Haflinger
> > Registry Inspection and Classification in 2004 and he was quite
> > insistent there had been no change in the cannon bone over the years
> > even though I had documentation from Austrian publications to the
> > contrary. He made special mention of this in his speech at the World
> > Show in 2005 because a number of breeders other than myself have been
> > very concerned about this trend that is fully sanctioned and
> > encouraged by the Tyrolian Breeders' Association and their inspection
> > process. In fact, in the case of inspecting my mare, Mr. Schweisgut
> > specifically looked at cannon measurement first in his assessment of
> > her and as it was 20 cm (in a 15-1 hand mare), it was not a horse that
> > interested him or that he would consider breeding quality.
> >
> > The same cannon bone circumference on a horse that is in fact 4 inches
> > taller than 25 years ago is in fact a significant change in
> > conformation and weight carrying ability. It is also interesting that
> > his father's tracking of cannon bone circumference in his past books
> > don't quite match Hannes' assessment. The cannon has gotten smaller
> > over the past century as the height has gone up. What does this
> > eventually lead to? *Barbaro* syndrome--the leg that snaps under stress.
> >
> > This is one of the many things I'm concerned is being lost in
> > translation among breeders who care deeply about the future of the
> > breed. I am not an advocate of stumpy stocky Haflingers as that is
> > clearly not (if you look at the original Haflinger founding stallions)
> > how the breed began. They have substance, yes. They have muscling,
> > yes. They have bone, yes. They have thicker necks, yes. They have a
> > delightful and friendly noble face and head, yes. They have a
> > substantial engine and medium midsection, yes. They have some
> > interesting coloring that included dark sorrel, golden sorrel, dorsal
> > stripes and variable color manes and tails, yes.
> >
> > Here is the text in the article written by the Southern Tirol Breeders
> > Association about 249 Folie, the "father" of Haflingers:
> >
> > "The cross-breeding of the oriental stallion "133 El Bedavi XXII" with
> > a local mare of Galician origins in 1874 in Sluderno/Schluderns, South
> > Tyrol, at the farm of one of these breeders, Josef Folie, gave rise to
> > a golden sorrel with dorsal stripe that was named "249 Folie". No one
> > imagined then that this was the beginning of a new breed, the
> > "Haflinger", that at that time was a popular South Tyrolean term for
> > `pack horse'.Evidently Folie had the ideal features for military use
> > and was bought as a studhorse. There are no known photographs or
> > paintings of Folie but the Commander of the stables, Count Huyn, gave
> > an enthusiastic description of the horse as a bundle of muscles with
> > Arab distinction, long, sloped shoulders, strong back, straight rump,
> > strong muscles and joints, long and correct stride and a good
> > temperament. His size was described as: Withers height 158 cm (by tape
> > measure), girth 182 cm, cannon 20.5 cm."
> >
> > I certainly wish I could have seen what that stallion looked like! I
> > certainly wish there were more people like Kerstin who really care
> > about the history of the breed and not just what will sell now.
> >
> > Emily
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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