in my opinion (and based on Dr. Deb Bennett's analysis of ideal bone to
height ratios, anything under an 8 inch cannon circumference on a 15 hand +
horse is way too small. Here is one conformation analysis (Cherry Hill) that I
could find quickly on the web, also dealing with the "flat vs round" cannon
issue. The cannon bone is anatomically round--that is simply how bones are made, not
flat at all--it is the appearance of "flatness" caused by the placement of the tendons that is considered ideal. It really doesn't have any functional significance that I'm aware of whatsoever. It is aesthetics.
"Quality is depicted by "flat" bone (indicated by the cannon bone), clean
joints, sharply defined (refined) features, smooth muscling, overall
blending of parts, and a fine, smooth hair coat. "Flat" bone is a misnomer
because the cannon bone is round. Flat actually refers to well-defined
tendons that stand out cleanly behind the cannon bone and give the
impression the bone is "flat".
*Substance* refers to thickness, depth, and breadth of bone, muscle, and
other tissues. Muscle substance is described by type of muscle, thickness of
muscle, length of muscles, and position of attachment. Other substance
factors include weight of the horse, height of the horse, size of the hoofs,
depth of the heart girth and flank, and spring of rib.
Best viewed from the rear, spring of rib refers to the curve of the ribs; a
flat-ribbed horse may have inadequate heart and lung space. Besides
providing room for the heart, lungs, and digestive tract, a well-sprung rib
cage provides a natural, comfortable place for a rider's legs. A slab-sided
horse with a shallow heart girth is difficult to sit properly; an extremely
wide-barreled horse can be stressful to the rider's legs.
Substance of bone indicates adequacy of the ratio of the bone to the horse's
body weight. Bone measurement is taken on an adult horse around the
circumference of the cannon bone just below the knee. For riding horses, an
adequate ratio is approximately .7 inches of bone for every 100# of body
weight. Using that thumb rule, a 1200 # horse should have an 8.4 inch
circumference cannon bone for his weight to be adequately supported."
Here are two reprints of posts I did on this list in the past about this
issue:
Eight Belles' break down at the end of the Kentucky Derby may not feel
connected to Haflingers, but there is a powerful lesson here for
Haflinger breeders. I am well aware the increasing frequency of break
downs like this in Thoroughbred front legs is attributable to the drive
by breeders to get the most muscle on top of the lightest bone in order
to attain the greatest speed.
This is not how a horse was meant to be built although they are meant to
be able to run fast to escape predators. They have become anatomically
dysfunctional. The Thoroughbred, beautiful breed that it is, has been
bred to a point of becoming unable to sustain its own weight under the
powerful forces of speed and pounding forward momentum.
This is a tragedy, as emotionally wrenching as Barbaro's injury and long
ago, Ruffian's fatal injury in her match race.
I only hope the Thoroughbreds with denser and greater diameter of bone
will be bred, even if it is sacrificing speed. At least there wouldn't
be this kind of needless suffering of an innocent animal.
As a close observer of Haflinger breeding practices in north Tyrol over
the years, I have documented, using the data provided by the Tyrolian
Breeders' Association in their publications, the practice of breeding
for a taller animal with a more refined (i.e. thinner) cannon bone
circumference. I also spoke directly with the director of the
Association, Herr Johannes Schweisgut, several years ago about the
trend, and gave him the data that showed the trend clearly from
early in the 20th century to early in the 21st century. He denied there
was a change from the "original" Haflinger, but the data preserved from
his father tells another story.
I'm very pleased to see in the last 2-3 years of three year old stallion
approvals in north Tyrol, this trend seems to have been slowed. In the
current crop of approvals, there are only two (Altare and Whetu) who are
almost 15 hands with cannon bones under 8 inches circumference. There
are several stallions who are under 14-2 hands with the same cannon
circumference so their weight bearing capacity is strengthened by the
sturdier bone. This is a very encouraging trend! With the wisdom of
the inspectors and the breeders, we will preserve the powerful and
strong bone that makes our breed unique and avoid the deadly extremes in
other popular breeds.
Mr. Schweisgut could use a
physics lesson or a basic structural engineering course. I brought up
this very point in my discussion with him at the American Haflinger
Registry Inspection and Classification in 2004 and he was quite
insistent there had been no change in the cannon bone over the years
even though I had documentation from Austrian publications to the
contrary. He made special mention of this in his speech at the World
Show in 2005 because a number of breeders other than myself have been
very concerned about this trend that is fully sanctioned and
encouraged by the Tyrolian Breeders' Association and their inspection
process. In fact, in the case of inspecting my mare, Mr. Schweisgut
specifically looked at cannon measurement first in his assessment of
her and as it was 20 cm (in a 15-1 hand mare), it was not a horse that
interested him or that he would consider breeding quality.
The same cannon bone circumference on a horse that is in fact 4 inches
taller than 25 years ago is in fact a significant change in
conformation and weight carrying ability. It is also interesting that
his father's tracking of cannon bone circumference in his past books
don't quite match Hannes' assessment. The cannon has gotten smaller
over the past century as the height has gone up. What does this
eventually lead to? *Barbaro* syndrome--the leg that snaps under stress.
This is one of the many things I'm concerned is being lost in
translation among breeders who care deeply about the future of the
breed. I am not an advocate of stumpy stocky Haflingers as that is
clearly not (if you look at the original Haflinger founding stallions)
how the breed began. They have substance, yes. They have muscling,
yes. They have bone, yes. They have thicker necks, yes. They have a
delightful and friendly noble face and head, yes. They have a
substantial engine and medium midsection, yes. They have some
interesting coloring that included dark sorrel, golden sorrel, dorsal
stripes and variable color manes and tails, yes.
Here is the text in the article written by the Southern Tirol Breeders
Association about 249 Folie, the "father" of Haflingers:
"The cross-breeding of the oriental stallion "133 El Bedavi XXII" with
a local mare of Galician origins in 1874 in Sluderno/Schluderns, South
Tyrol, at the farm of one of these breeders, Josef Folie, gave rise to
a golden sorrel with dorsal stripe that was named "249 Folie". No one
imagined then that this was the beginning of a new breed, the
"Haflinger", that at that time was a popular South Tyrolean term for
`pack horse'.Evidently Folie had the ideal features for military use
and was bought as a studhorse. There are no known photographs or
paintings of Folie but the Commander of the stables, Count Huyn, gave
an enthusiastic description of the horse as a bundle of muscles with
Arab distinction, long, sloped shoulders, strong back, straight rump,
strong muscles and joints, long and correct stride and a good
temperament. His size was described as: Withers height 158 cm (by tape
measure), girth 182 cm, cannon 20.5 cm."
I certainly wish I could have seen what that stallion looked like! I
certainly wish there were more people like Kerstin who really care
about the history of the breed and not just what will sell now.
Emily
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:24 AM, rivervalleyph <rivervalleyph@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>
> Emily, I can agree a bit, as I have seen a few really tall haffies with not
> the bone they should have for their size, however, I myself have a coming
> four year old that is 60"s and growing. NOPE, I didn't feed him miracle
> grow- I don't know what happened- his dam is 58 1/4", his sire was 57 1/2"s,
> his fullsiblings are all shorter! However, my point will be this- he is 60"
> right, his bone is 7 3/4"s, his canon bone looks larger than this, he has
> bone. His dam's bone is 7 1/4+, his sires bone is 7 1/2", however if you saw
> his sire you would think he is much lighter in bone, and you would think his
> dam is heavier in bone. Now, his full sisters- one has a bone of just over
> 7"s. she is 57", the other has a bone of 7 3/8 and she is 58"s. And here is
> the big boy with more bone and more height, and not something I bred for
> intentionally! So, I can say that I think for this colt, he has a lot of
> bone even though he is a big boy to me. I know their are haflingers that are
> 62+"s as well, but I think I would not want one that big no matter the bone,
> if I wanted a Suffolks, I would go buy one.
> So, my point here is that the few giants that have aroused from my very own
> breeding program, do have a bone to height ratio that is still quit similar.
> And, that even in the "good ole days" the haflingers bone on a 54" pony was
> never 8"s. I do know this as I have access to the records and pictures of
> the temple farm haflingers. Yes, we have as a whole bred for a finer bone,
> but by that I don't mean that the average 57" haflinger has lost much bone
> if you were to measure and compare to older haflingers, I simply mean that
> we have bred for a flatter bone and as a breed whole, have tried to get away
> from the round bone. We have added height and I too have seen many cases of
> too light in the bone department for their size, but I don't know that all
> of this is what breeders intentions are. We are seeing the influence of
> "outside" blood once and a while and of course, as soon as someone see's
> that haflinger outside the "average" they assume the whole breed is headed
> towards destruction or in some cases, you get the person that thinks thats
> what the breed should be. There are however, enough haflingers in the gene
> pool to equalize the problems we see and with good concentrated efforts by
> breeders these few abnormalities can be resolved. For instance- I gelded my
> giant! Yes he is very nice a big mover, all that, but he is too big.
> The real problem to me is that there are a lot of folks that have gone mad
> with wanting a haflinger over 15 hands and promoting it! Now, everyone has a
> right to do as they want I know, but I do not agree. If you have ever seen
> the haflingers here at Rivervalley you will have a hard time finding one
> that is truely small boned or truely huge boned. You will think that
> different horses are "lighter" or heavier, however, you will be shocked if I
> went and haltered them and measured them for you! Many of the horses you see
> and make your thoughts on, are very much the same as the next one, they do
> have differences in heart girth depth, the length of forearm and the length
> of canon bone, and these things can really trick your mind. Here is an
> example, when Alto was here, and we also had our young stallion Merl, people
> would come here and think Alto was taller and lighter in bone. However, Alto
> was 1 1/2"s shorter! Alto's bone was just barely less than Merls. Just
> standing still though you would think Merl was shorter. Here's the key- Merl
> is very deep in his heart girth. He is shorter in canon bone length, but
> longer in the forearm than Alto. Therefore he looks much different just
> standing in a corral. If he moves though, you would think Merl was a 15
> hands horse! So many people say that he grows when he moves- because he
> really lifts his front end up and drives his rear end. So, once people would
> see him move, they think he is huge!
> So my point here is that the eye can be decieving and until you reach down
> with a measure tape, keep that in mind. You may be surprised. Round bone
> looks heavier than flat bone, and this is and was a big thing in some of the
> original Temple Smith Farm horses and the haflinger breed for a bit. I see
> less and less of round bone and more and more flat bone, and that is a good
> thing! With that though comes the appearance of loosing bone.
> Just my thoughts, and again I know what you are talking about- I too have
> seen it first hand. It however, makes me disgusted to think others might
> really "want" or "breed" for that! I have also seen the haflinger being 59
> or 60"s and having a foot like a 13hand hackney! Thats another issue
> though... My horses have feet, I wouldn't and couldn't keep a horse with no
> foot- I live on the mountains- if we don't have dang good feet and legs than
> our horses don't have any chance in mountain pasture!
> So, there are variables and indeed there are those haflingers with not
> enough hoof, not enough bone, but as an average I don't personally have that
> problem. My horses are all pretty average I'd say. My mares bone are all 7 -
> 7 1/2", my studs n geldings are all 7 to 1/4 to 3/4. There girths are all
> around 70"s when in good flesh. My lowest girthed horse is 68"s, my largest
> is 74"s, the average is 70's, the height around here, well the mares all
> average 57-58", some are 56"s and some are 58"S, the tallest mare here is 58
> 3/4"s, the shortest mare is 55"s. The tallest stud is 58 3/4"s, the shortest
> is 56"s (ole man who is 24 and I think he shrunk with age, he used to be
> 57"s!) The average gelding here is 57"s. You know the tall guy, the shortest
> is 55"s and should mature around 56"s. Shoe sizes range from O to 3's,
> depending on age alot too of course. Average is 1 or 2. So, that is what I
> meant I guess. The smaller mares have smaller bone, the smaller gelding have
> smaller bone, the old stud out here has good bone but is not a course old
> boned critter either.
> So, just my thoughts and my breeding program. I know many others are
> similar as well. So, I just don't see the point of getting so excited about
> splitting haflingers into groups, because to me, they are haflingers! I
> still want that haflinger I can do ANYTHING with all in the same horse!
> I have honestly not owned a haflinger that "broke down" or had feet or leg
> issues. And I don't want to own one either. I'll keep my breeding program
> for now... others seem to like it too!
> Sincerely,
> Dawn
> --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>,
> briarcroft@... wrote:
> >
> > Dawn, I think your history lesson is pretty right on except one thing.
> You are right that cannon bone circumference doesn't vary much in today's
> Haflingers but the problem is the taller 15 hand plus ones have the same
> bone as the 14 hand ones. That is a much less substantial horse as a result.
> >
> > And I agree about the large heads--they came quickly in 1-2 generations
> as the Tirol breeders tried to breed quickly for height and neck length.
> Unattractive, absolutely. Temperament also took a backseat during those
> years, in my opinion so I disagree with Kiola on that.
> >
> > Emily
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "rivervalleyph" <rivervalleyph@...>
> > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:22:12
> > To: <haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Subject: [haflingerfriends] Re: Into the fold ....breeding out the Drafty
> >
> > OH BOY!!
> > DO I HAVE A LOT TO SAY HERE! Hold on....
> > First of all, the horses from Temple Smiths Farm to begin with.... I will
> leave some of my thoughts out for everyones comfort...however, those very
> horses were the foundation of Mr. McArthur and my granpas' herd, as they
> were buisness partners. So, with that being said I will tell you that yes,
> that original haflinger imported into this country was the smaller, draftier
> type. However, they were also not Austrias top horses I hope you realize.
> AND, in those days the haflinger was only bought to wander the hills for the
> Temple's to view! Literally. Then they drove them a bit. However, haflingers
> gained in popularity throughout the pony pulling world in those times. Now
> coming into the 60's and 70's the pony pullers were loosing ground and like
> many other disciplines, became a vanishing breed, furthermore the haflinger
> became less and less popular in this area as well because other pullers made
> more rules not allowing haflingers to pull against them either by weight, or
> by size. Because the haflinger was a very strong pulling pony and hard to
> beat if in good condition. How do I know this you ask? Well, granpa was one
> of those pullers! And he worked the haflingers in the woods as he still
> today owns a sawmill.
> > Now, time progressed.... the haflinger progressed too. The first
> haflingers in this country well, lets just say many of them weren't nice
> moving, good footed horses. So, after the pulling trend ended, in came the
> draft show ponies. However, the haflingers needed to be able to move much
> better than just shuffle along. So, for years that was exactly granpa's
> intent, he bred to feet and legs. At that time there was no big want for
> size increase, as the pony laws back east state that a pony must be 14.2 and
> under. Without plates. So, the haflinger was bred by many to be draft
> ponies. Now think of this, can a fancy moving, high stepping, getting their
> feet out their in front of them type of pony be wider than it is tall? I
> think not. But what most of you don't seem to understand is that the average
> haflinger even in those times, were not tanks with no legs. They may have
> been overfed, which as you all know isn't hard to do with haffies, but
> without the extra weight, they aren't much different than a lot of others.
> > SO.... we lead into todays haflinger in the USA.
> > Their are those of you that group haflingers as either being old style or
> new, or draft verses modern. I will say that their are exeptions to both
> ends, some very short and stocky haflingers and some very refined and tall
> haflingers, no doubt. However, the average haflinger across this country and
> I would go so far as to say across Europe as well, is very much the same.
> How much they weigh is very different, how much they look different at
> different times in their life is again different, however, almost every
> haflinger is within 1/4-1/2" the same in bone. Don't believe me? Go find
> every haflinger you can and measure their bone. Almost every haflinger out
> there if they were to weigh in good condition, not fat, not skinny, but all
> about the same flesh would all girth within inches of one another. Don't
> believe me? I will say this, I have had the pleasure of owning 100's of
> haflingers, all of which I have girthed, measured the circumfrence of bone,
> and height. I can't honestly single out one in my mind that was soo
> different that I can honestly remember them by it. My mom has too haflingers
> that are shorter than some of mine, however, even in the 70's the sought
> after haflinger was between 56-58"s in height, and her girls are out of
> mares that were 58"s and a stud that was 56"- they are 55"s. Do you think
> they were bred to be 55"s? Nope, they were bred to be between 56 and 58"s.
> Just so happens they are 55". Does my mom love them. YOU BET! Do they
> measure differnt than most of mine, nope, other than one inch in height!
> They have the same bone and the same girth. Sounds funny you think I'm sure,
> but it isn't.
> > Yes, there are those people out there that are going beyond what some of
> us like, however, their are MANY of us that still want the same horse...the
> all around pleasure horse.
> > I have said it before and will say it again, just as granpa did with
> Lawana I have done with some of mine and that is to win with the same horse,
> draft hitch classed and pleasure classes in the same day! Granpa did it more
> than once at the National Show, before they changed the rules (ha) and I
> have done it too! How you say? Harness up and watch me!
> > The goal for many breeders out there is not to detter from the haflingers
> strong points, but to gain in their weaknesses. Is everyone breeding for a
> 15+ hand haflinger? I Sure Don't Think So!
> > Does it happen? Of course. Just like my mom's mares are short. They are
> not little tanks however (they are too fat I will admit) but they still are
> beautiful little, well porportioned haflingers that fit into that exact
> catagory of a all around pleaasure! Some of you may think you have the OLD
> Style, or the NEW style, but what you really have is a haflinger! Feed him
> to be as wide as you want, shoe him to satisfy your wants, trim his mane and
> tail anyway you like, he is still a haflinger, not so different than any
> other if you would have them all shod the same, weighing in good not over
> fat flesh, and manes all the same length.
> > ALSO, one other disturbing thing to me... The original haflinger from
> Temple Smiths farm as well as Austria and other parts of the country had a
> gorgous, araby head, not a big head! I am not saying that all haflingers
> have that head today, it is sought after however, and known by almost all
> breeders to be the "old style" head that people wish they had more of today!
> > With all of that off my mind... I can go back to work now! I have a two
> year old stud colt I am working with, as well as I have just haltered three
> colts that are new to halters...So I better go get back to work.
> > If you are really confused now...I understand. My main point. Most
> haflingers are avereage. Most could be used for either draft or pleasure.
> Just fit them to suit your needs and you will soon find out!
> > Sincerely, knowing this will chap someones rearend,
> > Dawn
> >
> > --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Suzy Moren" <critterkeeper1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks John... I certainly agree with you, except for the last
> paragraph. "People" do want the small drafty types, we're just not the show
> folks with big bucks who control what happens to the breed. So much upset
> over the Spotted Haflingers, which I absolutely do not agree with, but no
> concern at all over the loss of the historic little chunky heart stealers.
> Also, I agree that they are show stoppers. Every where I go with my little
> wide butt gelding people ask about him and admire him. I was on a trail ride
> recently, and a woman was there riding the most majestic Fresian mare I've
> ever seen. She rode up to me and said "your horse is beautiful!! Made my
> day!
> > > Suzy
> > >
> > >
> > > From: John Borucki ...
> > > To: haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:23 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [haflingerfriends] re: Into the fold ....breeding out the
> Drafty
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes the drafty Haflinger Horse. When I first say my first Haflinger it
> was
> > > at Temple Smith Farms, in Wadsworth Illinois. I was a apprentice
> Horseshoer
> > > and the guy I was learning from did Temple Smiths horseshoeing.
> > >
> > > What brought me to this breed was the drafty good looking horse/pony
> type
> > > horse. If you go back in the registry you had Drafty type
> Haflingers....old
> > > breeders are still around but just not breeding anymore. They can shed
> some
> > > light on this subject...
> > >
> > > Our little drafty stile haflingers were the show stoppers! Then came
> the
> > > tall leggy, skinny type haflinger. The small breeder was not in demand
> > > anymore. Only big Dollar horses, tall,skinny Haflingers were showing
> up.
> > > Prices fell...well before the recession and sales fell.
> > >
> > > The affordable Little Haflingers were OUT. So was the people that paid
> into
> > > the registry. The Haflinger Highlite stopped publishing. Why?
> > >
> > > Judges won't even look at the small type Haflingers. The tread was
> turning
> > > and not to the good either. The registry is in the shape it is to day
> > > because the modern type haflingers are here and the old style drafty
> horses
> > > are out.
> > >
> > > The people that like the tall and skinny type Haflingers can enjoy
> there
> > > registry. The small breeder. Didn't bring the Skinny type Haflingers
> here. I
> > > enjoyed the Drafty type.
> > >
> > > Let's stop all the complaining. You buy what you like to look at. Do
> not buy
> > > the little guys for resale...! people don't want them anymore...there
> not
> > > modern.....
> > >
> > > John J. Borucki
> > > Farrier Service
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <RkyMtnTrls@>
> > > To: <haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:19 AM
> > > Subject: [haflingerfriends] re: Into the fold ....breeding out the
> Drafty
> > >
> > > > "...a pet peave of mine... the breeding out of the drafty type Hafy.
> I've
> > > > never understood why people buy a certain breed of horse and then
> decide
> > > > to
> > > > "change it" to suit what they choose to do with it..."modern"
> > > > haflingers...to me look more and more like Arabs every day... there
> are a
> > > > lot of people
> > > > who love our drafty wide loads!..."
> > > > .
> > > > Hello, Suzy -
> > > > My girl Ellie is also a drafty n' short Haffie (non-reg.) Her
> > > > photo here_rockymountaintrails.net/TrailBuddies_
> > > > (http://rockymountaintrails.net/TrailBuddies) (first on the left)
> > > > shows her in top shape, on our
> > > > ride to the top of the Continental Divide. You can see there - short,
> > > > round, very drafty old-style Haffie. (The photo to the right, she's
> > > > actually
> > > > standing on a slope and shadowed, it was taken on the same trip -
> doesn't
> > > > really show her conformation well.)
> > > > I don't have anything against the modern Haffie - and understand
> > > > their place in the show ring & breeder's needs.
> > > > For my personal like in build type ... what I wanted was a short,
> > > > muscled trail buddy ... the shorter the better! At the same time,
> didn't
> > > > want to break my mount's back, LOL! I am a hair under 5' tall, but
> not,
> > > > welllllllll, skinny ;-) So, the two breeds that really filled that
> > > > description (short and drafty) were the Haflinger and Fjord.
> > > > Fjords are gorgeous but also PRICEY!! Haflingers are beautiful
> > > > and more affordable.
> > > > I tried both types - and like with any breed of horse, one has to
> > > > hunt a bit before finding a good match (good for rider & for the
> horse.)
> > > > My Fjord trial ended up in two hospital trips, with permanent damage
> -
> > > > not
> > > > because of breed but because of a nut-case horse ;-) My two
> > > > Haflinger
> > > > trials, prior to Ellie, met the short n' drafty build, but were both
> > > > barely
> > > > describeable as "half trained" and much hotter than my
> enjoyment-level.
> > > > (Who wants "hot" on the side of a cliff?????) ;-) Ellie is my third
> > > > Haffie trial - and it's a MATCH, halleluja!! :-) Short, drafty,
> > > > cold-blooded, and reliable. She's not a saint - has the same
> pony-tude
> > > > (attitude)
> > > > of any "pony" breed .... but she is still a relaxing fun ride that I
> can
> > > > trust in the Rockies when we're mountain riding. Dispite no
> registration
> > > > papers - she's my riding partner till one of us can not physically do
> it
> > > > anymore. (I have scoliosis & arthritis, with limited years before I
> can
> > > > no
> > > > longer ride.)
> > > > Just wanted to chime in - I'm in the same boat - LOVE the
> > > > Haflinger breed for the classic old-style build! :-) When hunting
> > > > for my
> > > > buddy, I passed up all other breeds - because I wanted a short draft
> ....
> > > > no
> > > > Quarterhorses, no Arabs, no Icelandics .... wanted that little draft
> > > > partner! ;-)
> > > > .
> > > > Sher & Ellie in CO
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > > Community email addresses:
> > > > Post message: haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subscribe: haflingerfriends-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Unsubscribe: haflingerfriends-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > List owner: haflingerfriends-owner@yahoogroups.com<haflingerfriends-owner%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > Shortcut URL to this page:
> > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haflingerfriendsYahoo! Groups Links
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Community email addresses:
Post message: haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: haflingerfriends-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: haflingerfriends-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: haflingerfriends-owner@yahoogroups.com
Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haflingerfriendsYahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haflingerfriends/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/haflingerfriends/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
haflingerfriends-digest@yahoogroups.com
haflingerfriends-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
haflingerfriends-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
