So, my point here is that the few giants that have aroused from my very own breeding program, do have a bone to height ratio that is still quit similar. And, that even in the "good ole days" the haflingers bone on a 54" pony was never 8"s. I do know this as I have access to the records and pictures of the temple farm haflingers. Yes, we have as a whole bred for a finer bone, but by that I don't mean that the average 57" haflinger has lost much bone if you were to measure and compare to older haflingers, I simply mean that we have bred for a flatter bone and as a breed whole, have tried to get away from the round bone. We have added height and I too have seen many cases of too light in the bone department for their size, but I don't know that all of this is what breeders intentions are. We are seeing the influence of "outside" blood once and a while and of course, as soon as someone see's that haflinger outside the "average" they assume the whole breed is headed towards destruction or in some cases, you get the person that thinks thats what the breed should be. There are however, enough haflingers in the gene pool to equalize the problems we see and with good concentrated efforts by breeders these few abnormalities can be resolved. For instance- I gelded my giant! Yes he is very nice a big mover, all that, but he is too big.
The real problem to me is that there are a lot of folks that have gone mad with wanting a haflinger over 15 hands and promoting it! Now, everyone has a right to do as they want I know, but I do not agree. If you have ever seen the haflingers here at Rivervalley you will have a hard time finding one that is truely small boned or truely huge boned. You will think that different horses are "lighter" or heavier, however, you will be shocked if I went and haltered them and measured them for you! Many of the horses you see and make your thoughts on, are very much the same as the next one, they do have differences in heart girth depth, the length of forearm and the length of canon bone, and these things can really trick your mind. Here is an example, when Alto was here, and we also had our young stallion Merl, people would come here and think Alto was taller and lighter in bone. However, Alto was 1 1/2"s shorter! Alto's bone was just barely less than Merls. Just standing still though you would think Merl was shorter. Here's the key- Merl is very deep in his heart girth. He is shorter in canon bone length, but longer in the forearm than Alto. Therefore he looks much different just standing in a corral. If he moves though, you would think Merl was a 15 hands horse! So many people say that he grows when he moves- because he really lifts his front end up and drives his rear end. So, once people would see him move, they think he is huge!
So my point here is that the eye can be decieving and until you reach down with a measure tape, keep that in mind. You may be surprised. Round bone looks heavier than flat bone, and this is and was a big thing in some of the original Temple Smith Farm horses and the haflinger breed for a bit. I see less and less of round bone and more and more flat bone, and that is a good thing! With that though comes the appearance of loosing bone.
Just my thoughts, and again I know what you are talking about- I too have seen it first hand. It however, makes me disgusted to think others might really "want" or "breed" for that! I have also seen the haflinger being 59 or 60"s and having a foot like a 13hand hackney! Thats another issue though... My horses have feet, I wouldn't and couldn't keep a horse with no foot- I live on the mountains- if we don't have dang good feet and legs than our horses don't have any chance in mountain pasture!
So, there are variables and indeed there are those haflingers with not enough hoof, not enough bone, but as an average I don't personally have that problem. My horses are all pretty average I'd say. My mares bone are all 7 - 7 1/2", my studs n geldings are all 7 to 1/4 to 3/4. There girths are all around 70"s when in good flesh. My lowest girthed horse is 68"s, my largest is 74"s, the average is 70's, the height around here, well the mares all average 57-58", some are 56"s and some are 58"S, the tallest mare here is 58 3/4"s, the shortest mare is 55"s. The tallest stud is 58 3/4"s, the shortest is 56"s (ole man who is 24 and I think he shrunk with age, he used to be 57"s!) The average gelding here is 57"s. You know the tall guy, the shortest is 55"s and should mature around 56"s. Shoe sizes range from O to 3's, depending on age alot too of course. Average is 1 or 2. So, that is what I meant I guess. The smaller mares have smaller bone, the smaller gelding have smaller bone, the old stud out here has good bone but is not a course old boned critter either.
So, just my thoughts and my breeding program. I know many others are similar as well. So, I just don't see the point of getting so excited about splitting haflingers into groups, because to me, they are haflingers! I still want that haflinger I can do ANYTHING with all in the same horse!
I have honestly not owned a haflinger that "broke down" or had feet or leg issues. And I don't want to own one either. I'll keep my breeding program for now... others seem to like it too!
Sincerely,
Dawn
--- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, briarcroft@... wrote:
>
> Dawn, I think your history lesson is pretty right on except one thing. You are right that cannon bone circumference doesn't vary much in today's Haflingers but the problem is the taller 15 hand plus ones have the same bone as the 14 hand ones. That is a much less substantial horse as a result.
>
> And I agree about the large heads--they came quickly in 1-2 generations as the Tirol breeders tried to breed quickly for height and neck length. Unattractive, absolutely. Temperament also took a backseat during those years, in my opinion so I disagree with Kiola on that.
>
> Emily
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "rivervalleyph" <rivervalleyph@...>
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:22:12
> To: <haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [haflingerfriends] Re: Into the fold ....breeding out the Drafty
>
> OH BOY!!
> DO I HAVE A LOT TO SAY HERE! Hold on....
> First of all, the horses from Temple Smiths Farm to begin with.... I will leave some of my thoughts out for everyones comfort...however, those very horses were the foundation of Mr. McArthur and my granpas' herd, as they were buisness partners. So, with that being said I will tell you that yes, that original haflinger imported into this country was the smaller, draftier type. However, they were also not Austrias top horses I hope you realize. AND, in those days the haflinger was only bought to wander the hills for the Temple's to view! Literally. Then they drove them a bit. However, haflingers gained in popularity throughout the pony pulling world in those times. Now coming into the 60's and 70's the pony pullers were loosing ground and like many other disciplines, became a vanishing breed, furthermore the haflinger became less and less popular in this area as well because other pullers made more rules not allowing haflingers to pull against them either by weight, or by size. Because the haflinger was a very strong pulling pony and hard to beat if in good condition. How do I know this you ask? Well, granpa was one of those pullers! And he worked the haflingers in the woods as he still today owns a sawmill.
> Now, time progressed.... the haflinger progressed too. The first haflingers in this country well, lets just say many of them weren't nice moving, good footed horses. So, after the pulling trend ended, in came the draft show ponies. However, the haflingers needed to be able to move much better than just shuffle along. So, for years that was exactly granpa's intent, he bred to feet and legs. At that time there was no big want for size increase, as the pony laws back east state that a pony must be 14.2 and under. Without plates. So, the haflinger was bred by many to be draft ponies. Now think of this, can a fancy moving, high stepping, getting their feet out their in front of them type of pony be wider than it is tall? I think not. But what most of you don't seem to understand is that the average haflinger even in those times, were not tanks with no legs. They may have been overfed, which as you all know isn't hard to do with haffies, but without the extra weight, they aren't much different than a lot of others.
> SO.... we lead into todays haflinger in the USA.
> Their are those of you that group haflingers as either being old style or new, or draft verses modern. I will say that their are exeptions to both ends, some very short and stocky haflingers and some very refined and tall haflingers, no doubt. However, the average haflinger across this country and I would go so far as to say across Europe as well, is very much the same. How much they weigh is very different, how much they look different at different times in their life is again different, however, almost every haflinger is within 1/4-1/2" the same in bone. Don't believe me? Go find every haflinger you can and measure their bone. Almost every haflinger out there if they were to weigh in good condition, not fat, not skinny, but all about the same flesh would all girth within inches of one another. Don't believe me? I will say this, I have had the pleasure of owning 100's of haflingers, all of which I have girthed, measured the circumfrence of bone, and height. I can't honestly single out one in my mind that was soo different that I can honestly remember them by it. My mom has too haflingers that are shorter than some of mine, however, even in the 70's the sought after haflinger was between 56-58"s in height, and her girls are out of mares that were 58"s and a stud that was 56"- they are 55"s. Do you think they were bred to be 55"s? Nope, they were bred to be between 56 and 58"s. Just so happens they are 55". Does my mom love them. YOU BET! Do they measure differnt than most of mine, nope, other than one inch in height! They have the same bone and the same girth. Sounds funny you think I'm sure, but it isn't.
> Yes, there are those people out there that are going beyond what some of us like, however, their are MANY of us that still want the same horse...the all around pleasure horse.
> I have said it before and will say it again, just as granpa did with Lawana I have done with some of mine and that is to win with the same horse, draft hitch classed and pleasure classes in the same day! Granpa did it more than once at the National Show, before they changed the rules (ha) and I have done it too! How you say? Harness up and watch me!
> The goal for many breeders out there is not to detter from the haflingers strong points, but to gain in their weaknesses. Is everyone breeding for a 15+ hand haflinger? I Sure Don't Think So!
> Does it happen? Of course. Just like my mom's mares are short. They are not little tanks however (they are too fat I will admit) but they still are beautiful little, well porportioned haflingers that fit into that exact catagory of a all around pleaasure! Some of you may think you have the OLD Style, or the NEW style, but what you really have is a haflinger! Feed him to be as wide as you want, shoe him to satisfy your wants, trim his mane and tail anyway you like, he is still a haflinger, not so different than any other if you would have them all shod the same, weighing in good not over fat flesh, and manes all the same length.
> ALSO, one other disturbing thing to me... The original haflinger from Temple Smiths farm as well as Austria and other parts of the country had a gorgous, araby head, not a big head! I am not saying that all haflingers have that head today, it is sought after however, and known by almost all breeders to be the "old style" head that people wish they had more of today!
> With all of that off my mind... I can go back to work now! I have a two year old stud colt I am working with, as well as I have just haltered three colts that are new to halters...So I better go get back to work.
> If you are really confused now...I understand. My main point. Most haflingers are avereage. Most could be used for either draft or pleasure. Just fit them to suit your needs and you will soon find out!
> Sincerely, knowing this will chap someones rearend,
> Dawn
>
> --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, "Suzy Moren" <critterkeeper1@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks John... I certainly agree with you, except for the last paragraph. "People" do want the small drafty types, we're just not the show folks with big bucks who control what happens to the breed. So much upset over the Spotted Haflingers, which I absolutely do not agree with, but no concern at all over the loss of the historic little chunky heart stealers. Also, I agree that they are show stoppers. Every where I go with my little wide butt gelding people ask about him and admire him. I was on a trail ride recently, and a woman was there riding the most majestic Fresian mare I've ever seen. She rode up to me and said "your horse is beautiful!! Made my day!
> > Suzy
> >
> >
> > From: John Borucki ...
> > To: haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [haflingerfriends] re: Into the fold ....breeding out the Drafty
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes the drafty Haflinger Horse. When I first say my first Haflinger it was
> > at Temple Smith Farms, in Wadsworth Illinois. I was a apprentice Horseshoer
> > and the guy I was learning from did Temple Smiths horseshoeing.
> >
> > What brought me to this breed was the drafty good looking horse/pony type
> > horse. If you go back in the registry you had Drafty type Haflingers....old
> > breeders are still around but just not breeding anymore. They can shed some
> > light on this subject...
> >
> > Our little drafty stile haflingers were the show stoppers! Then came the
> > tall leggy, skinny type haflinger. The small breeder was not in demand
> > anymore. Only big Dollar horses, tall,skinny Haflingers were showing up.
> > Prices fell...well before the recession and sales fell.
> >
> > The affordable Little Haflingers were OUT. So was the people that paid into
> > the registry. The Haflinger Highlite stopped publishing. Why?
> >
> > Judges won't even look at the small type Haflingers. The tread was turning
> > and not to the good either. The registry is in the shape it is to day
> > because the modern type haflingers are here and the old style drafty horses
> > are out.
> >
> > The people that like the tall and skinny type Haflingers can enjoy there
> > registry. The small breeder. Didn't bring the Skinny type Haflingers here. I
> > enjoyed the Drafty type.
> >
> > Let's stop all the complaining. You buy what you like to look at. Do not buy
> > the little guys for resale...! people don't want them anymore...there not
> > modern.....
> >
> > John J. Borucki
> > Farrier Service
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <RkyMtnTrls@>
> > To: <haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:19 AM
> > Subject: [haflingerfriends] re: Into the fold ....breeding out the Drafty
> >
> > > "...a pet peave of mine... the breeding out of the drafty type Hafy. I've
> > > never understood why people buy a certain breed of horse and then decide
> > > to
> > > "change it" to suit what they choose to do with it..."modern"
> > > haflingers...to me look more and more like Arabs every day... there are a
> > > lot of people
> > > who love our drafty wide loads!..."
> > > .
> > > Hello, Suzy -
> > > My girl Ellie is also a drafty n' short Haffie (non-reg.) Her
> > > photo here_rockymountaintrails.net/TrailBuddies_
> > > (http://rockymountaintrails.net/TrailBuddies) (first on the left)
> > > shows her in top shape, on our
> > > ride to the top of the Continental Divide. You can see there - short,
> > > round, very drafty old-style Haffie. (The photo to the right, she's
> > > actually
> > > standing on a slope and shadowed, it was taken on the same trip - doesn't
> > > really show her conformation well.)
> > > I don't have anything against the modern Haffie - and understand
> > > their place in the show ring & breeder's needs.
> > > For my personal like in build type ... what I wanted was a short,
> > > muscled trail buddy ... the shorter the better! At the same time, didn't
> > > want to break my mount's back, LOL! I am a hair under 5' tall, but not,
> > > welllllllll, skinny ;-) So, the two breeds that really filled that
> > > description (short and drafty) were the Haflinger and Fjord.
> > > Fjords are gorgeous but also PRICEY!! Haflingers are beautiful
> > > and more affordable.
> > > I tried both types - and like with any breed of horse, one has to
> > > hunt a bit before finding a good match (good for rider & for the horse.)
> > > My Fjord trial ended up in two hospital trips, with permanent damage -
> > > not
> > > because of breed but because of a nut-case horse ;-) My two
> > > Haflinger
> > > trials, prior to Ellie, met the short n' drafty build, but were both
> > > barely
> > > describeable as "half trained" and much hotter than my enjoyment-level.
> > > (Who wants "hot" on the side of a cliff?????) ;-) Ellie is my third
> > > Haffie trial - and it's a MATCH, halleluja!! :-) Short, drafty,
> > > cold-blooded, and reliable. She's not a saint - has the same pony-tude
> > > (attitude)
> > > of any "pony" breed .... but she is still a relaxing fun ride that I can
> > > trust in the Rockies when we're mountain riding. Dispite no registration
> > > papers - she's my riding partner till one of us can not physically do it
> > > anymore. (I have scoliosis & arthritis, with limited years before I can
> > > no
> > > longer ride.)
> > > Just wanted to chime in - I'm in the same boat - LOVE the
> > > Haflinger breed for the classic old-style build! :-) When hunting
> > > for my
> > > buddy, I passed up all other breeds - because I wanted a short draft ....
> > > no
> > > Quarterhorses, no Arabs, no Icelandics .... wanted that little draft
> > > partner! ;-)
> > > .
> > > Sher & Ellie in CO
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
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> > >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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