I care. :)
Marilyn [chuckle]
________________________________
From: kerstin_dreborg <mb173801@bahnhof.se>
To: haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 11:51:26 AM
Subject: [haflingerfriends] Re: Into the fold ....breeding out the Drafty
Oh Emily, thank you for saying that (last words in your long and interesting post)!
I too am concerned about the current breeding trends in this breed. What worries me second most is that people "in powerful positions" like Mr Johannes Schweisgut are working so hard to find evidence that the current trends are the same as they were originally (in the end of the 19th century, when the breed was evolving so to speak). There are so many old books and booklets, so many descriptions that talk a very different language, but still they manage to find one single quote from some article that says that the haflinger used to be 160 cm (16 hands) and accidentally they forget that the measurements in those days were made with a tape, so as to compare them with todays measurements you need to subtract 10-15 cm! (4-6 inches).
What bothers me most though is that the variation within the breed is no longer accepted. When the breed was still young, say in the late 19th century and early 20th century, there were several haflinger types. There was one type in the Sarn Valley, another quite different type in the Vinschgau and yet another type in Salten, just to mention a few! People wanted and needed different styles and sizes of haflingers, and they were allowed to breed for what they needed and wanted! Not so today. Today we should all breed the same size and type no matter what we want or need. Like Emily, I'm not talking about breeding extremely small/coarse haflingers, but why is 142 cm (56 inches) considered "too small" today? Where I live, a horse sized 139.7 cm (55 inches) is worth lots and lots more than a horse sized 149.86 cm (59 inches) because the smaller horse can compete among ponies Category C and have a serious chance to be really successful, whereas the taller
horse would have to compete against the WBs as it's horse-sized. And they don't have much of a chance being on the smaller side in the "horse" category. Where I live, most of the people who want a haflinger are ladies in their 40s or 50s who are taking up riding again, when their kids are older. They don't want tall "sporthorses" , they want a smaller, reliable friend to go trail riding in the nature, and their kids may want to ride and go to competitions. None of the above mentioned people need or want a horse that is 59 or 60 inches tall with thin legs, but still I'm "forced" (by the inspection process) to breed for this not-needed 60 inches haflinger. Why?
It is often said "But you can enjoy your type while I enjoy mine" well, fine, but I don't want to enjoy my horses only, I want to BREED them as well. If I can't breed them because they are not the sought-after size or style, I will soon not be able to enjoy this type of haflinger, because even if haflingers live long, they do not live forever, and if we can't accept variation today, well, then there will be no variation in the future.
In the hope of more acceptance and liberality
Kerstin in very cold and snowy Sweden
--- In haflingerfriends@ yahoogroups. com, Emily Gibson <briarcroft@ ...> wrote:
>
> Dawn,
>
> in my opinion (and based on Dr. Deb Bennett's analysis of ideal bone to
> height ratios, anything under an 8 inch cannon circumference on a 15 hand +
> horse is way too small.
- - -
> As a close observer of Haflinger breeding practices in north Tyrol over
> the years, I have documented, using the data provided by the Tyrolian
> Breeders' Association in their publications, the practice of breeding
> for a taller animal with a more refined (i.e. thinner) cannon bone
> circumference. I also spoke directly with the director of the
> Association, Herr Johannes Schweisgut, several years ago about the
> trend, and gave him the data that showed the trend clearly from
> early in the 20th century to early in the 21st century. He denied there
> was a change from the "original" Haflinger, but the data preserved from
> his father tells another story.
>
> I'm very pleased to see in the last 2-3 years of three year old stallion
> approvals in north Tyrol, this trend seems to have been slowed. In the
> current crop of approvals, there are only two (Altare and Whetu) who are
> almost 15 hands with cannon bones under 8 inches circumference. There
> are several stallions who are under 14-2 hands with the same cannon
> circumference so their weight bearing capacity is strengthened by the
> sturdier bone. This is a very encouraging trend! With the wisdom of
> the inspectors and the breeders, we will preserve the powerful and
> strong bone that makes our breed unique and avoid the deadly extremes in
> other popular breeds.
>
>
> Mr. Schweisgut could use a
> physics lesson or a basic structural engineering course. I brought up
> this very point in my discussion with him at the American Haflinger
> Registry Inspection and Classification in 2004 and he was quite
> insistent there had been no change in the cannon bone over the years
> even though I had documentation from Austrian publications to the
> contrary. He made special mention of this in his speech at the World
> Show in 2005 because a number of breeders other than myself have been
> very concerned about this trend that is fully sanctioned and
> encouraged by the Tyrolian Breeders' Association and their inspection
> process. In fact, in the case of inspecting my mare, Mr. Schweisgut
> specifically looked at cannon measurement first in his assessment of
> her and as it was 20 cm (in a 15-1 hand mare), it was not a horse that
> interested him or that he would consider breeding quality.
>
> The same cannon bone circumference on a horse that is in fact 4 inches
> taller than 25 years ago is in fact a significant change in
> conformation and weight carrying ability. It is also interesting that
> his father's tracking of cannon bone circumference in his past books
> don't quite match Hannes' assessment. The cannon has gotten smaller
> over the past century as the height has gone up. What does this
> eventually lead to? *Barbaro* syndrome--the leg that snaps under stress.
>
> This is one of the many things I'm concerned is being lost in
> translation among breeders who care deeply about the future of the
> breed. I am not an advocate of stumpy stocky Haflingers as that is
> clearly not (if you look at the original Haflinger founding stallions)
> how the breed began. They have substance, yes. They have muscling,
> yes. They have bone, yes. They have thicker necks, yes. They have a
> delightful and friendly noble face and head, yes. They have a
> substantial engine and medium midsection, yes. They have some
> interesting coloring that included dark sorrel, golden sorrel, dorsal
> stripes and variable color manes and tails, yes.
>
> Here is the text in the article written by the Southern Tirol Breeders
> Association about 249 Folie, the "father" of Haflingers:
>
> "The cross-breeding of the oriental stallion "133 El Bedavi XXII" with
> a local mare of Galician origins in 1874 in Sluderno/Schluderns , South
> Tyrol, at the farm of one of these breeders, Josef Folie, gave rise to
> a golden sorrel with dorsal stripe that was named "249 Folie". No one
> imagined then that this was the beginning of a new breed, the
> "Haflinger", that at that time was a popular South Tyrolean term for
> `pack horse'.Evidently Folie had the ideal features for military use
> and was bought as a studhorse. There are no known photographs or
> paintings of Folie but the Commander of the stables, Count Huyn, gave
> an enthusiastic description of the horse as a bundle of muscles with
> Arab distinction, long, sloped shoulders, strong back, straight rump,
> strong muscles and joints, long and correct stride and a good
> temperament. His size was described as: Withers height 158 cm (by tape
> measure), girth 182 cm, cannon 20.5 cm."
>
> I certainly wish I could have seen what that stallion looked like! I
> certainly wish there were more people like Kerstin who really care
> about the history of the breed and not just what will sell now.
>
> Emily
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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