I know this post is addressed to Kiola, but I really appreciate the information you are sharing on the international scope and history of the Haflinger. Thank you, thank you and thank you. And, yes, I would buy the book were you to write it (depending of cost of course). This is very valuable information and should not be lost as countries and individuals try to make the most $$$ for their Haflingers. In that respect, people are people. If Americans aren't educated with all the whole picture, then they base their knowledge on what they do know, or have heard.
I'm not a breeder either, nor do I sell haflingers. I'm just an individual that believes in this breed and do not want to see it's intregity compromised.
Laura and Scharly of Cal.
--- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, "kerstin_dreborg" <mb173801@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Kiola,
>
> Yes, I read what you wrote very carefully and no, you did not "rub me the wrong way". Also, I am NOT looking to fight with you. I just disagree whith what you said, and tried to argue for my opinion. I obviously didn't do a good enough job though! ;-) Your guess that "Most likely I have no right to even be stating any opinions since I am not a breeder." is wrong, wrong, wrong! In my opinion ANYONE can state an opinion!
>
> I'm sorry, there aren't many links I can give you re. haflinger history or all the "politics" involved in this discussion. What you need is a second-hand bookshop (preferrably in Germany) and a good German-English dictionary. ;-) That is also why I said "almost all websites look the same". They all reproduce the same story, more or less, and if you want to learn more, or just get another "angle" on things, then, unfortunately, at the time being, there's no other way than starting to learn German and maybe a little Italian, but no, German is a thousand times better to learn.
>
> I have tried to explain the difference between "Europe", "Austria" and "North Tyrol" on this list for about a decade now, and I'm just getting very frustrated and very tired, because it seems like most of what I say is just not read or perceived. I guess it is so because most of you don't have the background info so you read my posts in another way than they're intended to be read.
>
> I've been playing with the thought of writing a book in english or translating some of the old books into english, but I'm honestly wondering how much interest Americans in general would pay to this? Do you think it's a realistic dream? Do you think anyone would buy a book on haflinger history and bloodlines? Except you and Emily, of course? And Uncle Jim, I shouldn't forget him either! ;-)
>
> Anyway, I checked out the links you gave, and I don't know, but there's so much I'd like to explain and I don't really know where to begin, but I'll give it a try.
>
> The AHR says "The breed origin can be traced to medieval times when writings told of an Oriental breed of horse found in the Southern Tyrolean Mountains of present day Austria and northern Italy." Now take a look at a map over Europe, and you'll see that all the places associated with the origin of the haflinger breed are in Italy. All of them - from Salten and Tschöggelberg, where the breed has it's roots, to Schluderns/Sluderno where Folie was born. Even the village Hafling, which has given the breed it's name, is situated in present day Italy. I went to Folie's birthplace with some haflingerfriends from the US and NZ five years ago (Ooops! Time flies, friends!) and we did cross the border going from Austria to Italy, so I'm pretty sure about this. ;-) That is only one tiny little fact that can be discussed - and it definitely IS being discussed, believe me! At least in Europe, where the country of origin of a certain horse breed has special responsiblities and also enjoys special "favours" when it comes to setting up rules for the rest of us. There are breeder's organizations that "approve" Italy as country of origin, and there are breeder's organizations that "approve" Austria (specifically the Austrian province of North Tyrol) as their country of origin. This is an ongoing battle between the two breeding organizations that the AHR just ignores, plus favors the Austrian interpretation of the history by even saying that the breed origins is partially in present day Austria. Not even the Austrians claim that! They claim to have the first studbook, something that is also discussed over and over again.
>
> As for the WHF site, I see it as pure "PR" for the WHF and wouldn't use it for "neutral" information. Just a few examples again, the WHF site says (scroll down to the summary/"Functions":
>
> * The WHF defines the breeding objective and type of Haflinger worldwide and regulates the judging criteria for international shows.
>
> Kerstin says: Whoa, there have been international (European) shows held in Munich (1990), Aachen (1997) and Meran (2006) where the WHF was not involved at all. That the WHF did not like or approve these shows is not a reason to say that they do not exist ... And no, the WHF did not define the judging criteria for those shows ... I also think that the first European show in Lyxemburg was "independent" before the WHF "adopted" it. There was an article on the issue in "Haflinger aktuell" last year I think, but I can't find it right now.
>
> * Die WHV defines the rules for the performance test for the Haflinger Aptitude Test .
>
> Kerstin says: Well, yes, for the countries where no performance testing was customary before the WHF started defining these rules, this is true. In Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Holland, France, Italy and the non-Tyrolean parts of Austria (organized in the ARGE) and maybe other countries as well, there were performance testing before this date, and we/they have continued to test the haflingers in the same way. So the statement is only partially true.
>
> * The WHF is the only true international umbrella organization for the Haflinger breed. It was founded in 1975. Today the World Haflinger Federation has 21 member organizations in 22 different countries on 4 continents.
>
> Kerstin says: What is "a true international umbrella organization"? There's also a European Association for Haflinger Horse Breeders. Why is the WHF saying that this organization is not "true"? If you don't believe me, here's the European Association's website: http://www.haflingereuropa.com The site has not been updated for a while, for example Dr. Gerhard Rainer has been elected President, and new members (I think Slowakia or Slowenia and the Czech Republic?) have joined. But the Association does exist, and to act as if it does not is - in my opinion - just childish. The European Association for Haflinger Horse Breeders were also responsible for the European Championships for haflinger horses held last fall in Meran/South Tyrol/Italy, with competitions in dressage, show jumping, eventing, western riding, trotting races and gallop races for haflinger horses from ten nations (274 participants according to the organizers).
>
> * The WHF insists on purebreeding in its breeding programme, but allows Haflingers with up to 1.56% foreign blood and firmly believes in a modern leisure horse.
>
> Kerstin says: OK, I do agree! :-)
>
> * The WHF is the international organization that approves European and World exhibitions.
>
> Kerstin says: Again, there have been European exhibitions/shows not approved by the WHF. So, because the WHF does not approve a show, does it make the show less European? Or what?
>
> * The WHF assumes the development and training of international judges and publishes a new list of these Haflinger experts annually.
>
> Kerstin says: The European Association of Haflinger Horse Breeders also trains judges, at least the newly elected president told the press this when he was elected. Dr. Rainer himself is a judge since many years, also, by the way, on the WHF list ...
>
> So, basically, what I disagree with is your statement that it is easy to find information on the breed and it's history. I now tried to give a few examples, mixing in a little European Haflinger Politics as well, so you'll see how easy it is to get the impression that you are reading "facts" when in fact (!) those "facts" are being discussed over and over again.
>
> Maybe I react the way I do because I as a European have another background than you, Kiola?
>
> My main opinion is still, that this whole "modern/classic" discussion has it's roots in the fact that the breed standard is changing, which makes "meet the breed standards" something else than "be true to the history of the breed". At least that is where I have a problem.
>
> Best wishes from your haflingerfriend in Sweden
>
> Kerstin
>
> --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, "kiolak" <kiolak@> wrote:
> >
> > Um Kerstin... Did you happen to read what I wrote right after I gave the links???
> >
> > I said:
> > "I am sure that Kerstin can give us even more links to check out as well... I am not trying to be a know it all (as no one can ever know everything... we all are continually learning)"
> >
> > If there is more out there that people can access... then PLEASE let us all know! That is why I mentioned that you may be able to give us more - I have no doubt in my mind you are much more intelligent than I.
> >
> > I surely wasn't looking to fight with you! I never even directed a arguementative comment to you. I actually out of my own curiosty went off of something you said about the difference between tape measurements and stick measurements. I think it is interesting, and I am always up to learn more. That is all.
> >
> > I honestly am trying to figure out what I said wrong there... maybe something I said was interpeted differently by you. Most likely I have no right to even be stating any opinions since I am not a breeder. I am sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.
> >
> > Your Haffiefriend,
> > ~Kiola~
> > Brier, WA
> >
> >
> > --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, "kerstin_dreborg" <mb173801@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Kiola,
> > >
> > > I think that you too are misinterpreting what I and others say. The problem is that the horses that meet TODAYs standards are not the type of haflinger that met YESTERDAYs standards.
> > >
> > > So, when Jeniffer says she doesn't like stallion A or stallion B, "He's GOLD rated" or "He's SILVER classified" is not a valid argument, it is The Problem.
> > >
> > > I do not say that *I* personally disagree with every single inspection score that has been made in the past decade or two, of course I don't! All I say is that I see a trend, and it is not to preserv the haflinger that *I* personally visualize when I read the old descriptions of the breed. When I say "old" I mean from end of the 19th century or beginning of the 20th century. Unfortunately there are not many photos from this time so we have to rely upon verbal descriptions and measurements.
> > >
> > > Once again, I am NOT advocating breeding for a small coldblood, a mini Belgian or anything of the kind. But today's trends go towards something that is "too much". Too much size and too much refinement, and nothing else is accepted ...
> > >
> > > I also have to disagree on your statement "> Please to anyone wishing to weigh in on what a Haflinger should look like, or what the history is of the breed... research it. It is pretty easy to do, it just takes time. Read what the breed standards are on the AHR website, and also read what they are on the World Haflinger Federation (the international governing body) website."
> > >
> > > It is NOT easy to learn about the history of this breed! It may seem easy, as almost all websites look the same, but hey, that is just the "surface". If you go just a little deeper than the AHR or WHF websites, there's TONS of information that will make you see the haflinger and it's history in a new light. Geeez, I sound as if I'm from some obscure sect trying to make you "see the light". Sorry if that is the impression I give! :-) I just see the HUGE difference between what you can learn about the breed if you read/speak German or "just" english. I can tell you, when I learned German (a process that started in 1993), a whole new world within the haflinger-world opened up for me. And as for time, it's not that bad at all. It just took me a bit over 20 years to learn what I know today.
> > >
> > > I could go on arguing about "facts" on the AHR or especially WHF websites that can definitely be discussed (and ARE being discussed) but I feel like I better give up and go feed my horses because it's no use to fight those windmills any more. Anyone familiar with Don Quixote knows what I mean. (He was fighting the windmills and it was an endless battle that could not be won).
> > >
> > > I guess I'll have to start translating all the old books to english. I just wonder who's gonna feed me (and my hungry horses) while I do it. I know who won't do it, but that's not much help! ;-)
> > >
> > > Best wishes from your haflingerfriend in Sweden
> > >
> > > Kerstin
> > >
> > > --- In haflingerfriends@yahoogroups.com, "kiolak" <kiolak@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello all,
> > > >
> > > > I would like to point out that while all of the stallions that Jennifer listed were licensed by the AHR, they were NOT all approved (recommended) for breeding, per breed standards. I believe those to be two different things. I will try and give some proof of that, so that you can learn from what I have found out.
> > > >
> > > > This is taken from the AHR website:
> - - -
> > > >
> > > > So a licensed stallion must meet the above qualifications - BUT it does not need to meet breed standards!
> > > >
> > > > To find out if a stallion meets with the American Haflinger Registeries breed standards it should have gone through I&C.
> > > >
> > > > For a stallion to be considered approved (or recommended) for breeding by the AHR, it would have to go through Inspection and Classification (I&C) which in the USA (and I am ONLY talking about the USA) is a NOT a compulsory program. A stallion does not need to pass I&C to breed in the USA - In Europe it is quite different.
> > > >
> > > > "Stallions scoring 74 points or less are not recommended for breeding." (per AHR rules).
> > > >
> > > > So, I looked up each of the stallions that Jennifer listed, and of the ones she liked, none of them had been through I&C. We do not know if they meet breed standards. We know they are licensed with the AHR.
> > > >
> > > > Of the stallions that Jennifer personally did not care for the looks of, two were GOLD rated (which is a HUGE deal) and three were SILVER rated. Three had not been inspected.
> > > >
> > > > All were licensed. Not all were recommended for breeding by the AHR - which means it cannot be proven that those stallions meet breed standards.
> > > >
> > > > Please to anyone wishing to weigh in on what a Haflinger should look like, or what the history is of the breed... research it. It is pretty easy to do, it just takes time. Read what the breed standards are on the AHR website, and also read what they are on the World Haflinger Federation (the international governing body) website.
> > > >
> > > > To help get those of you who are interested in learning more about Haflinger history and what Haflinger breed standards are both in the USA and internationally, check these links out;
> > > >
> > > > AHR website:
> > > > http://www.haflingerhorse.com/
> > > > AHR Breed Handbook - Rules, Regulations and Standards (in PDF):
> > > > http://www.haflingerhorse.com/documents/ahr_handbook.pdf
> > > > look on pages 53&54 to see a short summery of I&C
> > > > WHF website:
> > > > http://www.haflinger-tirol.com/en/world_federation/
> > > > WHF Breeding objectives (in PDF):
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/ybrmfgm
> > > >
> > > > I am sure that Kerstin can give us even more links to check out as well... I am not trying to be a know it all (as no one can ever know everything... we all are continually learning)
> > > >
> > > > OooF! Now I am taking a break. My eyes have gone blurry looking things up for everyone. I hope that I have been a little helpful and that you all will take the time to check out those links... there is an awful lot to be learned there. Learning is fun!
> > > >
> > > > Oh and BTW - I am not a breeder! I am someone who cares about the Haflinger breed, and wishes to see it remain as it is written within the breed standards. You don't have to be a breeder to care about the breed. ;^) I think this is something we can all AGREE on!
> > > >
> > > > Your Haffiefriend,
> > > > ~Kiola~
> > > > Brier, WA
>
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